TokenPay l Exclusive Interview with TokenPay CEO Derek Capo talking Verge and Bank Deal

Joe: All right, I think we’re live just–

Larry: I think we’re live right now Joe. Let’s see what’s going on over here if we could get up some picture coming and hopefully we should be because it’s coming up.

Joe: Good, yes, I think we are live. All right, Larry take it away, you’re good.

Larry: All right. Here we go. How you doing guys? Welcome back to Larry and Joe show. I’m Larry, this is Joe, we’re coming to you live from us here in New York and we have a very special guest with us today that we’ve been waiting for.

Joe: Yes, I have been [crosstalk] about this guy’s, this is awesome. We have none other than TokenPay CEO Derek Capo here.

Larry: Derek Capo.

Joe: I just want to say before we get going that I reached out to him probably about three weeks ago or a month ago and from the moment I reached out within about 10 minutes, this interview was already set up. To get that response from somebody of his caliber, not only his caliber but his busy life is amazing and that just goes to show you the type of community that we’re dealing with here. These coins are not only about exchanging a coin but in some case like a little family in a way. It’s awesome that he’s here and guys without further ado I’ll introduce you to him. Mr. Derek thank you for coming on my friend.

Larry: Derek Capo in the house, how are you doing buddy?

Derek Capo: Thanks a lot for having me, really appreciate it and yes when I get messages like that from people who are influential or whatever, I’m always willing to talk. Thanks a lot for having me here.

Joe: Yes, it was pretty awesome to hear back from you so quick like that. It said a lot about you and we do appreciate it, thank you.

Derek: Sure.

Larry: We just like to start our show with, as Joe’s going to hook us up right now, he’s going to get comments going, we’d like to hear a little bit about yourself, where you’re born and raised where do you come from, just we know you were just dropped from an egg, from the ceiling or the sky. Derek and that’s where we get a little information about your background, what’s happening. What’s a little bit of your story buddy?

Derek: Sure. Born and raised in Miami Florida. Father’s from Cuba, mom’s from Spain. Basically both immigrants into the United States. Definitely had that instilled the whole immigrant lifestyle working hard and stuff like that. I’ve been working with my father’s family business since I was a kid. I saw that grow, I saw what a family business can do and how it impacts not only the customers but also the employees and the family itself.

I saw all of that and that really always got me interested in business but didn’t know what kind of business. I thought the type of business that they were in was a little too boring and my dad said, “You know what, you should read about this guy named Warren Buffet.” That got me really into the whole stock market stuff, finance and we decided together, “Hey, you know what, let’s go to college.” My parents never went to college.

I went to the Florida International University studied finance and then a lot of that got a job at a Hedge Fund as an analyst for stocks and bonds, which is really rare because it was in Miami number one and number two they don’t usually hire non-Ivy League people in the Hedge Fund industry.

Joe: Yes, I’ve heard.

Derek: Usually they hire like Harvard and stuff like that. Let me tell you, I was really prepared for that interview because throughout college, I was so bored at school and I started reading annual reports. I remember calling up this company that had these annual reports. Annual reports is what a public company releases in order for people to get to know about the business. I ordered like 5,000 of them and I had them delivered to my house and my mom was like, “What the hell are you doing?

This is crazy.” I said, “This is what I’m going to be doing” and I just started reading thousands of them and I got to the point where I understood more and more about business and how it worked, the concepts, good businesses, bad businesses. When I got that interview at the Hedge Fund, which was like eight hours long in one day, I was ready, I was prepared. I was actually giving them ideas like, “You should probably look at this.

No don’t, this doesn’t look good” and stuff like that and I think they were just impressed. To me it wasn’t about that, it wasn’t about impressing, it’s the fact that I really really loved it. I was very passionate about it and I think that’s extremely important when you are at a young age that you go passionate about stuff, like go in all-in for anything you’re really passionate about.

Anyway, I did that for about three and a half years, then I decided I was going to quit my job and do something different. The goal was to get an MBA and eventually do my own thing with the whole Hedge Fund industry. I decided I had about probably about a year, I went to take a year off. I had always been working since I was a kid non-stop so I was like, “Let me take some time off” and I said, “You know what, let me go somewhere that I could learn something more than just travel.” Everybody says, “Yow, go travel”.

I’m like, “You know what, anybody can travel.” It costs you 5 grand, 10 grand, you can travel all over the world actually pretty cheaply. I said, “You know what, I’m going to learn Chinese.” I decided to go to China, study Chinese for about four or five months. I got there and I loved it. I love the people. I love the culture, the food. What I also loved was the level of entrepreneurship that was there.

It was actually very, very apparent and this is a country that basically lost everything 40, 50 years before and all of a sudden is just growing like crazy. I really liked that growth aspect and the opportunities and I said, “You know what, I’m going to stay.” Then the financial crisis hit and basically my entire world went upside down because the whole thought process was, “Let me go learn Chinese, become fluent and then eventually I’ll go back to the states and get an MBA.”

Was aiming to go to Columbia which is not far from where you guys are. When the whole financial collapse hit, I was like, “This is going to be bad.” I knew it was going to happen. We saw in Miami like 60 condos being built and you saw a lot of people that should not have gotten involved with real estate owning six, seven, eight properties and you’re just like, “What are you doing?” I was telling everybody, “Don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it” People just didn’t listen. I knew it was going to happen.

I had warn my family, my friends and when it finally hit I said, “This is bad, I’m not going to get a job in this industry for three to five years easily.” The reason is very simple, if you have every single one from Bear Stearns and Lehman and all these big brokerage firms lose their jobs, they’re going to be fighting for other jobs. If you’re in an interview or pull up interviews between you and MBA guy with 10 years of experience and three kids and a mortgage and you 25, 26 years old with none of that, the employers they’re going to choose the the former versus the latter. That’s because it’s experience and they’ll get him cheaper than what they paid before.

I realized that it was not going to be good, so I said, “You know what, let me start my own business.” Which is crazy to start a business abroad in China. It was completely different from anything I’ve ever done, it was an education business, so study abroad. I thought that the impact I had of going to China was amazing and I wanted to really help a bunch of people really alter their mindset about China and how China was really changing the world. I did that for about seven, eight years, it wasn’t a very profitable business but it did okay.

I learned a lot, I learned how to build a team internationally, I learned how to do HR processes, customer service, tech, I built software that was custom to us so that we could have a lot of operating leverage or a lot of efficiency and then eventually after that, I got into another business because that one kind of did bad because in the industry I did a robotics education business, that basically was to teach kids how to code and build robots. I’ve always liked technology.

I think people in our generation, I’m like the first year of millennial I guess. We really like technology, we kind of grew up with it not as intensive some of these other kids right now but really liked it. I did that and then the opportunity came up to look at crypto. I had always been looking at crypto. I was exposed to crypto in China because that’s where it started. A little bit more transaction started happening in China because a lot of miners were there so they wanted to sell their stuff. They wanted to sell their Bitcoin to get some RMB or cash. It started actually in China in 2011 or so. It was when I started seeing more and more of it.

I was really comfortable getting in. I think it was just me being a little bit more cautious and being in an investor mindset and then eventually the opportunity came where I said, “You know what, I think this is real, the blockchain technology is real, there’s obviously a lot of hoopla out there what’s going on, but I think that if you’d make a really strong business case and you really make it all come together then it’s very possible.” I just went all in and started studying everything I could and then work with my business partner to form TokenPay and that’s how it all started on my side.

Larry: It sounds like you should be about 75 years old with everything you just did.


How did you cream all that into a little bit of time because we know you’re not that old?

Derek: I’m 35 right now but I always feel like my brain is like a 50-something year-old guy. Don’t get me wrong, I can go out and have fun and go to a club or whatever. I’m usually the guy that out a club that you see there that’s dancing a lot, especially in Spanish music or something like that where you can dance or where the guy just nodding just drinking maybe water or talking business.

Every time me and my business partner we just non-stop talk business, this and ideas and that. My business partner is more of like an idea guy and strategy and stuff like that, I’m more of like the guy that can execute. I basically see how much of it of any idea, it doesn’t matter whether it’s him or somebody else’s, is bullshit or real and then I say, “Okay how can we make this happen?

What do we need? What are the type of people that we need and how can we execute this and how fast can we do it, and what is the business model behind that?” That’s common with me. When you start talking to me I’ll go nonstop about that stuff.

Larry: That’s good though if you have one guy, one way one guy the other way you’re meant together and-

Joe: You’ll need that.

Larry: -bring together also me and Joe.

Derek: That’s extremely important in any level of partnership. I think in the beginning you have to like each other and respect each other, that’s obviously important. Even though at times you will literally tell your partner to go eff himself or whatever and you learn to just say, “You know what, maybe he’s right, or maybe he’ll realize I’m right, but we got to come together and figure out what’s the right thing for both of us and also right for obviously the business that we’re trying to build.”

Larry: And that’s important to work it out.

Derek: Exactly. That’s extremely important. It’s a marriage. I spend just as much time with him talking and communicating than I do with my wife. It is that it is.

Joe: It sounds like– Thank you for elaborating on Larry’s question because we ask that question to everybody and I think that was the most elaborate answer we got.

Larry: It was great.

Joe: It does give us a lot of insight into your background and your knowledge that you have. It seems like to me from a very early start, you were very business oriented what your parents owned in the business. The fact you went the route you did into hedge funds and leaving that business which I’m sure was very lucrative, says a lot about you. To go out and what you did in China and stuff like that. My hat’s off to you. That’s awesome, man.

Derek: Thanks a lot. Just like Warren Buffett says I won the ovarian lottery by being born in the States but I think what people don’t realize is that’s just step one, when you start to really see all the hard work that came in. Whether it’s from my family’s business or whatever. My family’s business is actually pretty big. They’re actually one of the largest furniture retailers in the country. They went from zero in 1966 to about $220, $230 million in revenue every year. I saw that business go from when I was a kid and I was cognizant of my existence, $20, $30 million in revenue in the 1990s.

I remember spending time with my father looking at being in interviews in HR, listening to him interview people, being at the warehouses and being built. I would wake up at 5:00 in the morning with my uncles opening up the warehouse and then closing the warehouse at 9:00 PM, 10:00 PM with my dad. I would go with one uncle and come back with my dad. I saw that, that work ethic was extremely important to be able to understand how to build this. When I look at TokenPay and see all the opportunities out there and all the stuff that we’re doing we see all we’ve got to do is hit hard and that’s extremely important to put it all together.

Joe: Absolutely. I’ll get into this more later, but the way you’re going about things, I could at least feel that you have a very no rush kind of mentality that you’ve built into this which believe me is going to go a long way in the long run, I feel. I was surprised when I only saw you guys on one exchange when I was looking to purchase it and then you don’t have to do a more research I could see maybe why you’re doing that.

It’s not just about getting on exchanges, it’s about that deep integration that you’re looking for. I guess to back step a little bit, maybe you could just let us know a little bit about Tokenpay for anybody out there that’s not sure about it. There’s a privacy focus coin I know that, similar to verge to anybody out there in a way. Yes, please elaborate on that if you could.

Derek: Yes, we’re privacy-focused coin but I think what’s really important is we understand that privacy is important. We know there’s a lot of coins that are all about that and that only, and that’s okay, but we’re about those features plus other things. Because we think in order for this world to coexist with a coin like ours, is you need to have an ecosystem. For us, the important thing is to have an ecosystem of businesses that allow people to actually use the actual coin, to have an actual real utility.

It’s not just here’s a coin here’s the whole story about being private, let’s get on like a thousand exchanges and let’s get this to you whatever. That’s not our intention. That’s not our incentives. Our incentives are really about building something that’s going to last a very long time. I want to use the best analogy that I can use is what happened in the dot-com bubble?

Some people probably weren’t even born in this community but during the dot-com bubble, there were a lot of amazing businesses that existed throughout that dot-com bubble that survived because they had strong foundations and how to build and grow the business. Also what a lot of people don’t know is a lot of these big companies that survived, they acquired a ton of people and a ton of companies throughout that burst and that’s how they acquired talent, so they can be able to grow. Amazon was able to get a ton of people, Microsoft, Apple, you name it. These are the things that are extremely important.

For us, everything is about foundation in regards to exchanges, when we look at all of this stuff, every time we approached any of the exchanges one of the first things we asked is we’re not just looking for an exchange, we want deep partnership, are you interested? Can we talk? Usually, we get a no, or we get like, “Yes, here’s the fee,” and you’re like, “That’s it, we’re not interested.” When we approached to cryptos and I had a lot of talks with them, and I said, “Listen, I’m really looking at this long-term. What is that you guys are doing now? What are you guys building over the next three months, six months and what’s the differentiation between you and everybody else?

Stuff like these literally those very simple questions and filters that I have for anybody that we decide to partner with. They are very clear and transparent realized what kind of their background was and I have guys from Goldman, guys from a soft bank which are obviously huge financial institutions and they said, “We’re going to do this, this, this. This is our goal.” I said, “You know what, this makes a lot of sense for us, short-term, medium-term, long-term.” That’s why we decided to do that. Some people weren’t happy especially the Japanese community because are one of the largest buyers of our coin, because they’re–

Even though there were Japanese registered exchanged, they do not allow Japanese citizens to use the exchange. That was a bit of an issue and I did get a little bit of interesting comments from people about it. We’re obviously working on that and talking to others to make sure that is satisfied. Yes, that’s our thought process. Anytime we talk to anybody, those are usually three or four questions that I ask and if they can’t even coherently tell me a good answer I just say, ” All right, thanks a lot. We’ll talk later, we’ll see what goes.”

Larry: It makes sense because you don’t want to actually put everything you have into what you have to make it great and partner with somebody who really don’t care too much about. That’ll bring you down so you have to make sure they’re up to your level.

Derek: Yes, because when I think about it, we’re really looking for a lot of vertical infrastructures so being on exchange provides liquidity but what we’re really looking for is when we start looking with the actual banks and stuff like that. We want to start to have the ability for people to coming in and out. We want to be able to have a system so that the exchanges once wants a link to either a bank, it’s much seamless. It’s much better, it’s not a problem.

For us, that’s one, if you want to do merchant services, whether it’s regional say, Europe, or Asia, or the US. The important thing is to have exchanges that are able to provide that quick liquidity depending on what region it is. Cryptos obviously has a lot of Asia and obviously some of the US but for us, we obviously look at everything strategically. All the exchanges we look at what makes sense for all the business plans that we have right now. Is it this one, if it’s not then we’ll just not do it.

Joe: Now, I know from what I’ve read on your website that you’re privacy focus coin but I’ve seen like you also have a lot of security which is huge I believe in the crypto world to get new adopters or new people on board. They’re going to want that security if they’re investing in something. Maybe you can go you can go a little bit into about that, what differentiates TokenPay from other privacy coins?

Derek: I think the main differentiator is that you have if with our wallets you have integrated chat, so that you can communicate privately, whether it’s every day or where you’re talking about transactions. The dual key stealth addresses and the zero-knowledge proof a lot of the other cons have as well, so it’s not something that’s completely different. Eventually, over time we can improve upon stuff like that which will definitely separate more than differentiation but I think having that plus something else. I think what happens is that the governments and the regulators they don’t really understand they think of privacy coins as something really bad. They think it’s only just for a nefarious activity.

The reality is it’s not. I don’t want to have the fact that somebody can find out how much money or how much coins I have and I really don’t want to share that information. Anybody, I mentioned this in a couple of other videos but anybody right now who works at a certain bank where my bank accounts are located can literally pull up my name and find out everything. They can see how much money I have, the transactions I’ve done, et cetera. It wouldn’t be difficult for a hacker to do that. When I think what we see in the digital realm or the cryptocurrency space is that basically, we’re bringing back the concept of cash back into the digital world.

Cash itself, if you ever got a dollar bill or anything, it’s got a public address on it, it’s got that serial number, that’s a public address. The difference is there is no private key, the actual unit itself is the actual value. What we’re saying is if this is gone, if you’re going to eliminate paper– which is happening every day. The more and more tech that we have, it’s being eliminated where people don’t want to use it.

We’re saying, “You know what? We’re resetting,” at least the community’s saying, “You know what? We really want to have that aspect of cash and if you’re going to take away the paper, whether you stop the printers or not, we want to be able to do it digitally.” At the end of the day, any bank or any institution that wants to do any types of things like this, they’re always going to have to know who the customer is anyway, whether it’s a digital transaction or a cash transaction.

The regulators are just a little bit hesitant right now because they think, “Oh, all of it is bad?” The reality is the process and procedure is the same. How did you receive this cash? What’s your business? Are you running a business? What is it? Is there a website. There’s so much things right now on the internet that you can find out whether somebody’s lying or not.

For us, at least on the privacy side, we feel like that is the level of cash that I think people are looking for, and I think that’s okay. What we see as the extension is that is to build an actual ecosystem of these businesses, which is merchant services, escrow, we’re also doing a gambling, so that’s not going to be tied to the bank but that’s an ecosystem that makes sense for us.

We are planning on doing a decentralized exchange, only because we feel like that’s the right way to go. I think what you’re starting to see is a lot of these other exchanges that are centralized, they get hacked all the time, there’s always something major happening, there’s always problems with KYC in bank and withdrawals. It’s always an issue. If you have decentralization on the exchange, everybody still holds their coins, they’re just using this platform so they can exchange within themselves. A bunch of other projects that we have in the pipeline but those are our core and then, from there, obviously, the banking, that we just acquired 9.9% stake in the Bank of Germany with an option to buy the rest.

Our intention really isn’t to own the entire bank, our intention really is to bring in strategic partners into the bank. If we can get four, five, six, seven other people that make a lot of sense to us, it could be an exchange, it could be an influencer, it could be an investment company, it could be another bank, it could be a brokerage firm, that has influences that can help us out to make this a reality, then we’re okay with it. Right? So yes.

Joe: Yes, and we did see the news about the bank acquisition, that’s amazing, congratulations on that.

Larry: Yes, it’s very nice.

Derek: Oh, thanks.

Joe: Now what is TokenPay’s I guess strategic move in acquiring part of a bank? Is it to facilitate a debt or to have a debit card made or what? Just an idea of what the thought process was behind that.

Derek: Yes, there was a lot of thought process of why it makes sense to do that. Number one, financially, it was a smart move to be able to do that because we felt that, eventually, we’re going to have to integrate all of this together through all of the businesses and the ecosystem that we’re trying to build out. Number two, I’ve said this publicly. It’s important that the regulator’s have conversations with the crypto community or at least the financial community.

I think that if you acquire a bank, you have a seat at the table with the regulators. You can talk to them and you can educate them and you can explain, “This is what we’re doing. This is how we’re doing it. This is the KYC. This is the process, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera”. They become more and more comfortable with it and then eventually those laws eventually they pass or whatever it is, where’s there’s new laws, there’s always something that we say, “Yes, we were part of that.” That’s extremely important.

Now what’s happening now though is that all of these exchanges and a lot of the other cryptocurrency projects are basically having third-party relationships with these banks. Or they’re just a customer of the bank. Guess what? When you’re a customer, you could be fired by the company any day. Where, in our situation, you can’t really do that. We are the bank, in a sense. I mean that not in a legal term but we are that control.

There’s no situation where we would be fired, I guess in that sense. Yes, the goal is we have a seat at the regulator table, we can talk to them, educate them, we’ll be able to do debit cards. We obviously will have our TokenPay debit card. Where we do have plans to have a Verge debit card. If there’s other projects out there that want to do a private-label card or integrate with our system, then that’s fine, we can add them as well.

Also, merchant services. If you want to have a merchant service business, the problem with merchant services today for the cryptocurrency world is that you can collect as much TokenPay as you want, but if you can’t convert some of that into dollars or euros to be able to pay some of your staff, because your staff for whatever reason, wants to collect euros or whatever or suppliers, it’s a very difficult thing.

Having a bank facilitates that process. Again, vertical integration, the bank is that core and then you have the merchant services that has a business there, that provides ability to connect to the bank, you have escrow. We believe more and more transactions are going to be done on escrow, whether it’s real estate, whether it’s businesses being sold, whether it’s domain names.

I’ve had emails with CEO of GoDaddy. It was about some other problem because of, believe it or not, no joke, it was token escrow was on their web site for sale. I went to go buy it through the auction and it ends up that they didn’t have claim to have that domain to be sold, it was a glitch on their system.

Larry: Wow, a big glitch. That could be problems.

Derek: It was a very big glitch. I contacted– I had a fight with their customer service rep because I had a guaranteed assurance email saying that I own the domain. Guaranteed by GoDaddy.

Joe: This is after you won the auction?

Derek: Yes, it was like a Buy It Now. The guy that was trying to sell it on the Buy It Now, what ended up happening was that guy lost the domain name, dropped it, and somebody else picked it up. But then, it was owned by somebody else. GoDaddy didn’t remove him from the system. I have this knack of being able to contact CEOs and I just basically guessed what his email was and I just nailed it.

Yes, and then I emailed him and he replied back, and he was like, “Yes, I’ll take care of you,” you didn’t take care of us, at the end of the day, you’re just like, “Well, that’s my team’s decision, that’s not mine,” I’m like, “You know what? Your system is flawed.” I ended up having to pay 70% more for the domain from a broker.” It was a really big glitch. I’ve been trying to contact them, I was like, “Hey, when do you want to talk about crypto?” He didn’t know who I was, and that’s fine, no reason to know. I’m going to be in his ear constantly. i send him an email every week.

Joe: I would continue doing that.

Larry: That’s what you got to do, yes.

Derek: Every week. Because like, “You know what? If you don’t know me now, you’ll eventually hear about me and then we’ll have a nice conversation.”

Larry: [laughs] Then they’ll want to talk to.

Derek: “That domain name that you owe me, I want my money back for that.” They refunded me, obviously, but I’m like, “You know what? That difference, I want to make you [laughs] guys pay for it.”

Joe: Absolutely, 70%, damn, that’s a lot of money.

Derek: Yes, in the grand scheme, it wasn’t a lot but it was the principle. He replied, which is very interesting, he replied, that’s really amazing, it’s a public company CEO. He didn’t have to reply and I think that was good that he did but, at the same time, I laid out to him very clearly the flaw in the system. When I said [unintelligible 00:27:46], “You guys messed up big-time,” and he just didn’t reply after that.

Larry: Just got blown off. [laughs]

Derek: Yes. That was pretty interesting. Anyway, those were my stories.

Larry: Yes, that’s cool. If we just go back real quick to the bank situation, we got the bank at 9.9%. From what I understand, correct me if I’m wrong, in Germany, as an individual, that’s all you can buy in a bank. Is that correct?

Derek: The law, in a lot of countries, not just Germany, in the United States, an individual or a corporation cannot own more than 9.9% of a bank for security reasons or national interest reasons. And if you do decide to do own more than that, you have to go through the regulatory approval to be able to purchase that. Got to go through a six-month or more process, explaining what the purpose is of purchasing that bank.

Larry: That would be my next question, are you going to go ahead with that?

Derek: Absolutely. That’s what we’re doing, we have to spend tens of thousands of euros to get that through and it’s a six-month process. At the same time, we are looking for strategic partners. If we find anybody that we think could help us make the bank bigger, more successful, more stable, especially with this whole transition that we’re trying to do– the original bank is a property, it was specifically made for property management, and we still are going to maintain that.

It was a bank that was specifically giving loans to housing associations in Germany. Let’s say, you’re a housing association in Germany and you need a new roof, and the money that you collected every month from your renters, from a part of the association fees, is not enough to cover this new roof for whatever reason. You go to this bank and you get a loan from the bank to be able to get the roof. Of course, the cash flow of the association fees will eventually pay off alone.

That’s the majority of the bank, that’s what the bank is right now and it will still continue to be that way. We think that’s actually not a bad business to own, maybe we can be bigger. We always look at these opportunities, what can we make so that if, the current bank is good, then what could make it bigger and better. Why not. Sometimes you got to do that to hedge your risks. Over time, we’ll start integrating all of the technologies that we want to integrate and then go from there.

Joe: Got it. Now I had a quick question– me and Larry been on the Verge bandwagon for quite a while now, over a year. I know that your company or you were big part in why Verge was able to push that partnership through, they just had with MindGeek. I was watching the donations closely and I remember the night before, the day before, being at like 15% or 16% of the goal, I was like, “This is never going to happen,” and then, I hear about you putting in the rest of the funds.

At first, it was just a little confusing– or not confusing but it was just like, “Wow, privacy coin helping a privacy coin.” I was just curious on the thought process behind it and what the move was or how do you feel the move will benefit Tpay and Verge moving forward?

Derek: I think we first have to go into the the beginning of all of this. Every time in business, you have to start connecting dots, start connecting dots to start to realize how this all happens. Like I said, about a year or so ago, we really went on all-in about crypto. I was actually starting to reach out to a bunch of people and I started talking to Justin [unintelligible 00:31:35] from Verge and started talking about the industry and stuff like that.

It was very nice to actually talk to me and trying to educate me as much as possible. I told him, “Listen, I’d like to launch a coin and I know it’s very different from what you guys are doing,” because he didn’t do token sale, he didn’t do any of that stuff, it was all developer run in mind. You had to have a miners proof of work. He was extremely patient because I asked him a lot of stupid questions. He was like, “You know what? I was the same way X amount of years ago, so I’m just kind of giving back,” and I said, “Okay, cool.”

As we were building our stuff, obviously, we asked him if he could be our blockchain auditor, he decided to join us as a blockchain auditor. But I’ve always been following Verge for a real long time. In fact, Verge was like– I think when I met Justin, I think Verge was like I think five million market cap or 11 million market cap. We saw that and we were like, “Wow,” and we saw the rise and we were like, “Wow, that’s pretty intense.”

What happened was I started following, I started seeing how passionate that community was, I would see shows like yours and I’d listen intently, taking notes, understanding everything. I’m a voracious reader. I’m always listening to interviews of a bunch of people because I want to see how they think, what they’re thinking, and that thought process. Obviously, you can contact me and Justin all the time. There was an opportunity and he gave me a call, I signed an NDA with him.

He said, “Listen, this is a really big deal, there’s an opportunity for us that I think we can do,” and I said, “Okay, fine.” He’s, “Listen, I will give you X amount.” I think it was about 10% or 15% of what he was trying to raise, he said, “I’ll give you this much, let’s get your community do the rest,” I said, “Okay.” As we started seeing the donations coming in, we thought that they needed a little bit of boost, so we actually gave more then, we started doing an offer to double donations, et cetera.

Then, I gave Justin a call and I had a really really heart to heart conversation, I said, “Listen, how badly do you want this? How badly do you want this deal?” He’s like, “Yes, I really really want this, this is extremely huge for us and huge for the crypto community. This is basically putting a stake on the ground and saying, ‘we’re here. It’s here, it’s happening.'” And I said, “Okay, obviously, we have to work a few things out,” and he was very agreeable to everything, and I said, “Okay, fine. No problem.” What was the intention of why we did that? Obviously, to give all that money, obviously, it’s not something that you just donate that. “I’m going to be a billionaire,”

That’s not something I can easily give away like that. The strategic reason was– our community was much smaller than Verge’s. We had about 120 something people register our token [unintelligible 00:34:24], we had, at that time, about maybe 8,000, 10,000 people in Telegram, maybe 14,000, 15,000 in Twitter. We thought that helping the Verge community we would be able to have a lot of people that were interested in Verge to look at us as well. It’s like the opportunity of acquiring a customer. What is the value of acquiring a customer?

I could’ve spent two point something million dollars on Twitter or any of these other social platforms to get people to know me, or I can find really really focused people who are in Verge who know about privacy coins, who are really passionate about it, and have the opportunity to look at us.

Larry: Wow, very smart.

Derek: That’s one. Also, as we’re going to do the bank, we’re not going to only have TokenPay card, we’ll have Verge cards. Well, all of sudden, I just opened my consumer base from potentially 10,000 people that are interested in TokenPay cards to, potentially, 50,000 to 100,000 people that are on Verge cards. Another layer there. You start to go deeper down the Ripple’s, now Verge’s being contacted by a ton of other companies. Well, guess what?

The conversation is not just going to be about Verge, it’s going to be Verge and TokenPay. That was part of the things that I talked to Justin, I said, “Justin, it’s not just this. If there’s another opportunity with another company, you have to bring us in.” Again, it’s just helping each other. It was extremely important for us to look at it this way and we thought that Pornhub is a great first step but there’s 50 to 100 other– or thousands of more companies and opportunities out there, this was just getting the ball rolling.

Because it didn’t do a Token sale or anything, we had that capital and we thought that it was a smart move. Some people did not understand that. It’s the business mindset that we have, that actually starts to resonate, like, “This is why we’re doing this, and you’re not going to realize it now, but you got to realize that we’re trying to build a long-term sustainable business that actually will be around. If there is a crash or collapse of ton of other coins or projects that fail, we’ll be there because we have an ecosystem, we have partnerships, we have real things happening, and we’ll be able to survive.” That’s the mindset we have from day.

Larry: And that’s awesome. Let me tell you something, what you just said, in that last few minutes, was definitely very very good and inspiring to hear that how you want to work together to make things grow and how you took your mind to say, “I can put 2.7 million over here, over here. In a smart way, I’m going to go with Verge and it’s going to create even more of what I need,” which is– I mean your train of thought was awesome.

Derek: Yes. I think what I’ve realized I think that there’s a lot of immaturity with the crypto community and I think that there’s all these fights between this coin and that coin and that– you know what? For a few years, I think that made a lot of sense because everybody’s trying to differentiate themselves. To my extent, I just felt like there needs to be a little bit more maturity in this fighting. I said, “What’s the point of fighting? Do you not realize who you really are fighting? It’s not each other, it’s actually somebody else out there?”

It’s like the analogy that I give a lot of young students, because I used to have a lot of young students come in from my China business, and I said, “You guys think the competition is the 30 students in your classroom in your high school. The competition is not the 30 students in your classroom, it’s the kid in China, the kid in India, the kid in other parts of the world that are studying 12-14 hours a day because they don’t have a choice. Because it’s either they go to college to get a really good education or they go to the factories.”

Larry: Wow. Yes, that’s cool and awesome. Now also talking about with Verge, with MindGeek and Pornhub, it’s kind of stagnant right now, the price of the coin and stuff. We always said that the Verge coin was just a little undervalued. Once this came out with the MindGeek and stuff and TokenPay with you, things were going to burst, it’s slow. What do you think is causing that? Do you have any idea what’s happening there?

Derek: No, I think, right now, I think what’s happening is people were– there’s a whole [unintelligible 00:38:36], I think there was definitely a lot of hype with all of this. I think what people– and it’s the right mindset, that it is undervalued, we actually own a lot of Verge because we felt that it not only was strategic to give [unintelligible 00:38:50] but also strategic for us to actually own a lot Verge. Because anything that TokenPay does but that benefits Verge, we will benefit as well. We look at it as a good long-term purchase that actually makes sense for us.

Now what’s happening with the price, it’s hard for me to comment on why it’s so low, but what I do think is happening, I think what’s more strategically important is that a lot of other companies are starting to look into Verge, big companies, companies that are not part of the same industry, and I think what’s going to happen is you’re going to start to see, within a few months, just a trickle of constant companies adding and adding and adding and adding and adding.

All of a sudden, you’ll start to see that it’s not just MindGeek, it’s 50 other companies. Then you have the catalyst with the bank. Now you can have the debit cards, you can have all of that stuff. We feel that the stuff that we do will benefit Verge and, eventually, people will realize that. I think the things that we have merchants being added for both of us, that’s also going to help it. For us, we have to focus on the fundamentals, focus on the actual partnerships that make sense. Eventually, all the other stuff takes care of itself.

Joe: Got it. Now I have a quick question. As far as the market cap, excuse me, the total coin supply, maybe you could speak a little bit on your thought process behind keeping it low like you did. I think at 25 million cap, compared to Verge, I think has 16 billion. I personally feel that the lower coin volume total supply is a benefit but I’m just curious on what your thoughts was behind that.

Derek: Yes, for us it was more of like an ode to Bitcoin to be close to 21 million and not be 25 billion but also, we realized while we were going through this whole Token sale process that there was a lot of these ERC 20 coins that we’re doing billions and billions of coins and selling it for a penny or so or whatever. It just wreaked a very scammy. We wanted to really stick to a BTC price that was linked to BTC price and not something that was like a penny or something like that. It doesn’t mean that it’s not a bad idea. In fact there are–

Larry: Hold on one second. I think you’re breaking up a little bit. Give us a second. What happened on that?

Joe: Could you hear us, Derek?

Derek: Yes, perfect.

Joe: Okay good. I just had to restart something.

Larry: Something just started cracking up. I’m sorry. Go ahead, Derek.

Derek: It’s okay. It doesn’t mean that it’s– there’s a lot of good projects that actually did the same strategy, billions of coins and a penny. It did really well. It doesn’t mean that, maybe, another project that we do or whatever doesn’t, it’s fine. For us, it was just an ode to Bitcoin to be close to the 21 million. We figured 25 was a nice round number. That’s it. That’s– where we really do the thought process. Eventually, I think yes, people do get a sticker shock “Oh, it’s 10,000 for a Bitcoin or whatever it is.” but it doesn’t matter. If you have point zero zero zero zero zero ability to do transaction, it doesn’t really matter at the end of the day.

Joe: Great. While we’re speaking about Verge, I just wanted to touch base. You guys are doing a huge meetup, I believe, on June 9th in Amsterdam.

Larry: Amsterdam.

Joe: Am I correct?

Derek: That is correct. Yes. It’s actually my first time being in Amsterdam so it’ll be really exciting.

Joe: [crosstalk] I was going to ask you that. That’s awesome.

Derek: In fact, that community– that Amsterdam, Netherlands community is amazing because we have a ton of people on our Telegram chat that are from there and we noticed that in Verge is the same thing. It’s like, my goodness, these guys are the most passionate people I’ve ever met about the stocks.

Joe: They are.

Derek: I will never fight with them about soccer or anything because their nationalistic about it because I will lose that battle.


Joe: I just wanted to give a big shout out to somebody in the Verge community. His name is Ronald. He goes by RbullXVG on Telegram. He actually donated two tickets to that meetup to our channel.

Larry: [crosstalk] Yes.

Joe: Which we’re giving away. We do a giveaway every Tuesday for our subscribers so anybody out there that wants to go to Amsterdam, tune in on Tuesday, every Tuesday and we do a giveaway. We let you pick a prize and Derek said he would send some shirts over, so we’ll probably have some of those.

Larry: [crosstalk] Some shirts, some hats.

Joe: It will be awesome.

Larry: And definitely, Amsterdam RBullXVG, thank you so much for those two tickets, Tuesday night. Awesome of you. Thank you so much for that meetup.

Joe: [crosstalk] That goes back to what you were just–

Larry: [crosstalk] Derek Capo’s going to be there. If you guys want to meet Derek Capo, he will be there. [laughs]

Derek: For the record or just for discussion, I will not have any TokenPay on me [laughs] or any Bitcoin on me, anything like that.

Joe: Don’t bum rush him, guys.

Derek: Really looking forward to it.

Joe: Yes, that’s great. Like you were just saying, it just goes to show you how that community is, this guy reaches out and just says, “Hey, I want to donate two tickets to your show”. It’s great. We get that all the time from the Verge community.

Larry: [crosstalk] Yes, yes.

Joe: It really is a great community. For the last week or so, I’ve been dabbling in the TokenPay community a lot and they’re just as awesome over there so it’s been great.

Larry: Yes, definitely. We’ve been on their chat, talking to them. You guys are great too. They’re starting to build a big community also. Derek it’s behind you. Once they’re behind somebody that they like and they talk highly about you and about the whole TPay and a lot of stuff. It’s awesome.

Derek: To me every time I’m in the chat, I’ll make a little, quick announcements here and there but I get a lot of private messages, obviously, trying to help them with certain problems whether it’s a wallet issue or the kind of coin distribution stuff, but I will literally meet amazing people that are very– they do amazing day jobs, right? They’re just helping us out and it’s just amazing. I use it as a kind of an HR for system. I actually told my administers, you know what, if you have somebody that’s interested in working for us, we’re going to have to– we’re going to have an HR process. Here it is.

All the– here’s a list of questions that you’re going to ask them and we’re going to make them go through an interview process. If they want to be an admin, I’m actually really serious about admins actually on Telegram. I actually make them sign an NDA and give me their ID and everything because I don’t want any admin doing anything shady or anything like that. I really want to make sure that our stuff is as clean as possible. I take a lot of stuff seriously. I can have fun, don’t get me wrong, but I take a lot of this stuff seriously.

Larry: You have to. To be in-

Joe: [crosstalk] That you definitely do.

Larry: Yes, where your position is and what you’re doing, you could tell you take everything seriously. Remember, you got to like what you’re doing too and you seem to like what you’re doing.

Derek: I love it, I love it.

Larry: [crosstalk] It makes it easy.

Derek: This is a mix of finance and tech and a make community, passionate people. It’s just amazing. All the funny memes that I see all the time.

Joe: It’s awesome.

Larry: [laughs]

Joe: You can’t make that stuff up.

Larry: They actually made one of me, Joe. Remember when they made one of me?

Joe: Yes, they did. They got Larry already.

Larry: They got me. [laughs]

Derek: That’s when you know you got– you made it. When they make a meme off of you in your own chat.

Joe: Tell him about it.

Larry: [laughs] Joe says “Look, they made a meme of you”. I said “oh my god, that’s funny”. [laughs]

Derek: [unintelligible 00:45:48]

Joe: Now, I guess– I know you have a– we have a little bit more time, I guess. I know you had a function and we appreciate you taking the time to come on and do this. May be you could speak a little bit moving forward. Anything big that you want to talk about happening in the next few moths with the coin? Anything like that?

Derek: Blockchain technology stuff, we’re not really going to do anything big but I do think that we’re going to have an iOS app in a few months. That was supposed to be in the first quarter of this year but obviously we had a few delays with the core distribution. We do plan, probably in two to three months, potentially, having the iOS app. We’ll also start in July or so to launch merchant services and then a month or so after that will be escrow. We’re looking at a lot of other opportunities. Some of it are part of TokenPay. Some of them are not going to be a part of TokenPay, at least the connection to it but they will benefit TokenPay and in Verge and other partners that we’re willing to work with.

For us, it’s just all about having an ecosystem, continue to grow it and do whatever actually makes sense. There’s three things that are going to happen this week. We are going to be listing on two exchanges. We’re going to be listing on system coin which is, I think, top 50 ranked exchange on Coin Market Cap. The other one is going to be a smaller one called BiteBTC. Both very, very, very good. They’re just small. We’re also integrating with coin payments.

We’ll be done with, I think, 24 to 48 hours, they should have it for us but if not by next week we’ll have integration of coin payments, so we’ll have some of the people who are today, want to be able to have merchant services with coin payments do it and, eventually, we’ll have our own which should be a little bit different than coin payments. Yes, those are big things that are happening at least the short term, super short term this next week and then over the next few months we have that. We have a lot more stuff in the pipeline. Just some stuff I can’t say until it’s finalized. I hate to jump the gun. I’m one of those guys that I only say things when I know it’s official and it’s all done.

Larry: We appreciate that because we’ve seen a lot of guys making comments that just didn’t pan out. That’s what we like to hear. Somebody holds off until it’s ready.

Derek: Yes. Internally, we have our– with our team, we talk about certain things, ideas, and stuff like that. We’ll say “Hey, it’s in the process, we’re talking but until there’s something signed and finalized, I don’t like to talk about it”.

Larry: Awesome.

Joe: That’s awesome. Are you full-time in this?

Derek: Yes.

Joe: Okay, this is it?

Larry: This is their business.

Derek: There’s no way you cannot be full-time with this. There’s no way.

Joe: Awesome.

Derek: Yes, full-time.

Joe: I’ve got to admit, I have a totally– after speaking to you, totally different outlook and– well, not an outlook but as far as moving forward, I have a totally different view on where this coin is going and being that you’re in the driver’s seat, it tells me that this is a coin that’s going to succeed. You’re not going to let it it not. Which I think is going to be huge for the crypto-world, in general. We appreciate what you do. It’s awesome.

Derek: Yes. For us, we’re all working. It’s a huge team. It’s growing everyday. It’s not just me. We are talking about partnering all the time. Believe it or not, we actually make sometimes strategic business decisions based on conversations we have with the admins in Telegram. We’re talking about whether we do this or do we choose this, whether it’s a logo we’re making for this.

There’s no way that I can do this by myself. It’s physically impossible. There are not enough hours in a day to be able to do it. For me it’s more of like the opportunity to work with guys that are in the Telegram and the people that we’re hiring full-time. That’s extremely amazing to have an opporunity. I’m so happy working everyday I get up and it’s not work. It doesn’t feel like work. It feels like I’m building this amazing thing, amazing project that I think is going to do amazing things.There’s going to be some no hiccups here and there, but to me it’s just what’s the end goal and what we got to do and what are the solutions, how we get there and we’ll move forward. Never in my mind did I think 10-15 years ago that I would have been in China for eight years, that I would have been part of a coin and that I would have ever in my life or the company that we have by as of today 9.9% of a bank in Germany, never never.

That’s life, it’s all about part of the journey and I tell people all the time I say as you’re learning there’s a lot of people in this community are very young, some people are like a teenager, I met a kid in Japan was 15, 16 years old. I say to them, “Listen you’re probably thinking about trading and the coin going up and down and all that, but if you really, really believe in this industry and what we’re trying to do keep on filling up your Batman utility belt of a bunch of skills because one day you’re going to need it.”

That’s really what it is, all of this stuff that has accumulated over the past 30 something years has all started to come together. I think a lot of people sometimes get really frustrated at a certain age of, why haven’t I done this, why haven’t I succeeded here, and I’m letting you know I’m a living example of constant failure I guess to some extent, and finally getting to something here and putting it all together and saying, okay now we can do it let’s go let’s go.

Larry: Just real quick here, what they say about failing, it’s not how you fail is how you pick yourself up and keep going.

Derek: Yes, and it’s extremely hard because I can tell you several points in my life that I’ve had close to nervous breakdowns where I remember literally being in my apartment crying on the floor thinking what the hell am I going to do with my life, and it happened when the financial crisis hit, I was somewhat pseudo pigeon-holed by being a financial analyst and that was the business that I should be in, because that’s what I should be in. That was a little bit of stubbornness.

I remember talking to my dad and he was like, “You know what?” You’ve got different skill sets, how to sell, you know how to talk, you’ve been working with us since you’re a kid, use those skills, I don’t know what the hell it is you’re going to do, but just do it and we’ll support you.” Again when my business was failing in China it was just extremely stressful having to cut that down to the bone and it was like having to lay off people because the industry went down. It wasn’t that I did a bad job, it was just the industry it’s just the most worst thing in the world.

Going through that and having to join others startup and start from scratch and trying to work with a team where you’re not like really the boss you’re one of the bosses but you’re not the boss, and it was very humbling to go through that. I remember talking to friends and family, I need to be the boss in a way, but I got to do this, because I need to pay my bills and I need to do what I got to do.

It’s extremely frustrating but I think if you continue to keep at it keep, educating yourself, keep reading and learning and find people around you that are going to lift you up and help you out, not bring you down, those are extremely important things that I think really when I look back I say you know what that really helped.

I know it got a little weird emotional I guess, but I think it’s important that people understand that this is not a linear thing, this is not something that was just magically happened, there’s no Wizard of Oz controlling all this is real, this is me and my partner and a bunch of people that are helping us out. Today I may thank them and we have so much shit to do [laughs].

Joe: It seems like you got your work cut of for you. That’s great men like Larry said, if you love what you do you’re not working and I truly believe that, that’s awesome man. We come and do this show every week and we’re not really making anything off it but we enjoy it and that’s why we come back. I’ve been doing it for a year now so we know how you feel on that.

Larry: Get up and do something you like you just doing it doesn’t matter what’s happening and stuff. We love doing this and we love having guys like you on the show.

Derek: That’s great, thanks for having me, really appreciate it.

Joe: No problem. I guess a couple quick questions, I know you got to get out of here. As far as the crypto I guess scene in general let’s say a couple years down the road, do you still think BTC is king?

Derek: I do believe BTC is king only because I think that people are much more comfortable about it today than they were a few years ago, and they’re not as comfortable with some of the newer stuff. There is no management behind BTC which means it’s hard to attack and target. I think you have to understand that a lot of these coins they have management, some of them do really a lot of silly stings and if they go after that management then eventually the projects of these coins eventually fall apart.

The beautiful thing about Bitcoin itself is that there really is no way to take it down, there’s no management team that can literally cut off the entire project, and I think that’s the beauty of it. Yes, there are developers that are helping now, but I mean if you cut all of them today guess what? There’ll be 50 more tomorrow. To me I feel like yes it’ll be king but it’s hard to predict. I want it to be, I think it makes a lot of sense.

That’s why I like the other day Charlie Lee from Litecoin mentioned something he said– he’s obviously the founder of the Litecoin Foundation. He said a very interesting comment, he said, “If I want this to be really truly decentralized, I eventually have to step down from the Litecoin Foundation.” A lot of people were like, “Oh my god Charlie’s leaving,” and try to create this crazy fad.

I completely understand what he was trying to say, he says, “If I want this to be like Bitcoin where there is no somebody that they can take down, whether it’s a regulator or whatever it is take down and say that’s the guy,” he’s basically saying that’s why he sold most of his stuff, that’s why he said, yes I’ll eventually leave because I want this to be decentralized. I think that’s the right move, completely right move.

When you have somebody like a Ripple that owns 60%-70% of the coin and they’re working with banks and doing a bunch of like this stuff if I’ve always said in that infrastructure falls apart Ripple falls apart. The most important thing is to continue to have stuff that’s just decentralized as possible and eventually let the actual thing live and exist, so that’s why I feel Bitcoin will survive.

Larry: Did you did you see anything to do with Litecoin or anything, because there’s couple of questions are coming out next about Litecoin and stuff?

Derek: Yes. We signed an NDA with Charlie Lee and the Litecoin Foundation so we can’t really announce exactly what’s going on, but there’s stuff happening, we hope to finalize something by a week or so and then we’ll make an announcement if we do make an announcement in a couple of weeks.

Larry: That’s awesome thank you for the answer.

Joe: I will definitely be looking out for that.

Larry: We will be watching that, that’ll be awesome.

Joe: One question we ask everybody that comes on the show and we get all sorts of feedback, the craziest being yes, and I know the guy, but who do you feel Satoshi Nakamoto was and that’s the founder of Bitcoin to anybody out there that doesn’t know.

Derek: I don’t believe it was one guy, I believe that cyberpunks definitely worked on stuff back in the 90s, it was a project that they had worked on together. One guy was definitely maybe more passionate about it and basically took initiative to create this whitepaper, but I believe the influence of that whitepaper was the influence of many, many people that contributed to it.

Maybe there was one guy that was behind it for a period of time but I do believe there was a few people that were involved. I think a lot of people understand and it’s hard to do these things by yourself. Being a cryptographer you can look at it one way but eventually you’re going to have to have other people that look at a complete different way in order for it to survive.

I do believe there were a few people eventually, that’s why they had an anonymous name because if they really wanted to take credit, they would have taken credit. It could be a few guys, some guys are dead already, some guys that are still alive, but I do believe that it was a team of a few people, I don’t know who they are exactly, but yes I think that it was a few guys.

Joe: Good answer. John McAfee by the way was on our show and he said, “Yes, and I know he’s alive and I know the guy.”

Larry: I was going to have dinner with him but I don’t want to. That’s what John McAfee said. I would have had dinner with him, but I didn’t want to eat with him.


Derek: I don’t know, I mean maybe he does it for clicks or click bait or whatever it is, but who knows. You have guys like Craig Wright come out, and I’ve listened to his interviews, I told you I read a lot and I try to understand like who’s the real guy and I get to a point where it’s like I don’t really care who the real guy is because I think what he did, or the group of people that did this basically nobody really wants to claim that there are the original and have real proof because if they do then they’re scared, they’re actually generally scared of what will happen to them.

They have every incentive not to say anything. It’s a group of guys, I said maybe one of them died already, so there’s no way that they’re ever going to do it, but somebody to come out and say I’m the guy, I’m the guy, I’m the guy I have proof that I’m the guy, is it possible that there are other cryptographers that actually made something similar to this but actually didn’t release a whitepaper at that time or whatever it is, yes it’s very possible. There’s probably a guy out there that invented the second light bulb. A lot of stuff out there that people–Tesla was not the first electric car, there were others. There’s always something like that. That’s always the true story and the reality of the story.

Joe: Yes, good answer, I appreciate it. All right. I guess is there anything–

Larry: You have two questions.

Joe: Yes. One more, sorry about that.

Larry: I have to remind them, they have two questions.

Joe: What was the cheapest Bitcoin you ever purchased?

Derek: It was actually in 2011. It was very small. How do you do it, right? I think it was like a few hundred dollars trying to remember. It was in China, too small, it was very small amount. We didn’t know what it was. A little bit I was in China, what the hell I’m going to do with it.

In fact a lot of my money I was putting into my business, it’s the problem, when you’re building a business you have to put all that money in and pay staff and pay employees. in hindsight I should have gotten all that money and put into Bitcoin. I would have been maybe a couple $100 million, but then there wouldn’t be no TokenPay. There’s always a journey.

Larry: You did the right thing.

Derek: So far yes.

Larry: Let me just ask you a quick question too about something about the government. Do you think that the government at some point is going to step in and start regulating things and stuff? It’s happening in other countries and stuff. How do you feel about, or are you nervous about that happening here?

Derek: I do believe that the governments will start to regulate. I think they are taking cautious measures of how they’re doing it because if they over regulate it, people will just leave and it’s starting to happen, where you have exchanges, projects, and you have a brain drain. They will leave and they will go somewhere else or that country or whatever will welcome them.

Just to give a perspective. I saw them interview Mark Zuckerberg and the questions they asked them and he did not understand that you can build a website that’s free and it could be worth several hundred billion dollars based on one free website, didn’t understand the concept of exactly how this business runs and how it makes money. If they don’t understand what Facebook is, which was founded in the early 2000s and is paying billions of dollars in taxes.

Even today some of the people in government at least here are not aware of how it runs. It’s a little bit like okay how long is it going to take for them to realize how this blockchain stuff is going to work. However, I will say that it’s extremely positive that you have Goldman buying Poloniex, that you have a lot of these companies like JP Morgan, Bank of America has tons of patents in blockchain.

All of these companies are really starting to get in, and I think that’s extremely important because you have the older financial system getting involved and they’re definitely going to have a much more bigger influence on the crypto world than right now us as a united front. That’s a good thing and a bad thing, because what’s happening you’re still having the old guard continue the thing but they’re just changing their infrastructure and they’re not really allowing other stuff but at the same time if there is true decentralization and other countries are willing to cooperate then they’ll leave.

For example in China. China is very strict about it. I have an idea of how the Chinese government works. I knew that it was going to be banned. It’s very obvious they like to control all these things, but what’s happening in China is there are tons of blockchain projects happening in China, tons. However, nobody knows the names of these companies like the real companies. They’re using servers that are outside of China and if they kick off they will literally move. They will move, they will leave China, they will go to Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia anywhere they can to get visas and they will literally move, once it’s already taken off.

What’s causing that it’s a brain drain to China. If China says, “Hey, you know what? We need to be a little bit more measured about how we do this stuff.” I think people don’t realize why they banned Facebook. Now we’re going a little bit more philosophical about China and I wanted to understand how governments think to some extent at least me living in a pseudo communist country even though it’s very capitalist.

The Chinese government does not allow companies like Facebook, Google or whatever into their country because obviously they want control but the more important thing is that let’s say they have a meeting with Mark Zuckerberg and he asked Mark. “Mark, how many employees are you going to hire?” “Well, we’ll hire a thousand employees.” Mark’s going to be like. That’s amazing, you are going to hire a thousand. It’s like, “Well, I can get a Chinese company that can hire 50,000.”

The thought processes is the Chinese government basically wants to make sure that they help their people as much as possible. That’s the only way they can maintain the political structure that they have. If they do not help their people, their people will revolt. The difference between the Chinese environment today versus 40, 30 something years ago is before you could have given a Chinese citizen a staple, a bowl of rice and some vegetables and a house and they would be happy.

But now you have these young Chinese that are very very educated and a bowl of rice and vegetables and a house is not enough. They want stability, they want jobs, they want a house, they want a car, they have credit cards, they have education, they want strong education, they want cleaner air. They’re much more demanding than that old generation. They’ll go to the Chinese companies which they obviously control, they collect taxes directly from the corporations. There’s no such thing as individuals in China filing tax forms. They force the companies to pay the taxes on behalf of the citizen.

Joe: Wow. I didn’t know that.

Derek: Yes, what happens is you have a foreign company come in with their foreign ideals coming into this country and saying, “Oh we’re going to hire a thousand people,” and China is like, “Yes, that’s great but I got another guy in China that’s going to hire 50,000. Not only is that important for my people to get jobs because they’re graduating from universities about jobs but I can also collect taxes from that.”

There’s the political, the financial motivation and there’s obviously the other stuff, and I think people have to realize that countries to some extent always do what’s best for them and I think that’s what’s happening. When you look at all of this stuff you start to see the effects of this global stuff. When you have the old-school guard or financial people come in. I get weary in a way because they will try to make sure that their territories are not encroached on.

The beautiful thing is that because of the internet and the level of decentralization there are plenty of opportunities to go after that. I do believe that there will be some mergers that will happen and I do believe that there’s going to be definitely some disruption.

Joe: That was a great answer.

Larry: Yes, definitely appreciated that answer, that was awesome. That was very good.

Joe: Before we let you run is there anything you want to shout out, anybody you want to shout out. Where could we find you, this and that?

Derek: Yes, you can all follow us @TokenPay which is our main Twitter. We also have about 17,000 people right now in our Telegram. You can go to our main website Click on the Telegram button so you can join us there. You can always add me as well @DerekCapo on Twitter. You can follow me there or you can chat with me on Telegram.

I don’t like to talk bullshit on Telegram. If you come with me with something be very specific of what you want to talk about, and how we can help each other. I always ask everybody what can we do to help each other not like what you can do to help me, how can we help each other and then that way we can have a much better more fluid conversation. That’s it.

Larry: That’s awesome.

Joe: Listen, from both of us, we really appreciate your time and you come in on the show, it means the world to us and if you ever down in New York please let us know when you’re coming so we could at least meet up and take you out to dinner or something like that.

Larry: It was definitely nice finally getting to talk to you because a lot of times a face behind the product is really good to get involved with. It just showed a lot today the type of person you are, who you are, what you’re going for, what your goals are and where you came from. That just said a lot to us and hopefully to all our viewers out there to finally get to meet Derek Capo. What he’s all about, who he is and the face behind TPay and we appreciate that.

Derek: I think what’s really sets us apart I think a lot of people haven’t realized, it’s me my business partner have been doing businesses for many many years and we failed and succeeded in some of them. I think that’s a huge advantage because now we can execute with a lot of stuff. I think that’s our main differentiation, now over time, we’re going to start to really show the community and I thank talking to you guys.

Thanks a lot for having us on really can help people will be educated about what we really are doing. We’re not just one thing we are a whole system that we’re trying to build. Again thank you so much, really appreciate it.

Larry: Thank you, one thing real quick again. I just seen here somebody’s asking about your website if you can update it or something, you can update your website?

Derek: Yes we’re working on it right now. We have five websites being built because we have merchant services, escrow and we’re starting to work with the bank to update their website as well. We’re trying to work on KYC process and integration. I’m talking to a bunch of companies to make sure we have that integrated, but we will have like an umbrella website which is the website which eventually will be lander and eventually those links will be activated when those divisions are released. It’s a teaser showing what’s going on and it’ll still link to the old one because we still need two people to still go to the old one from coin stuff that we have those stuff.

Larry: All right, cool. A lot of people too asking about if you’re going to have a site where they could buy t-shirts or hats. I know you’re going to send us some for our giveaway but how about you to be selling some. [laughs]

Derek: Yes. We’re going to launch a website called and eventually that’s printed by Licensed Apparel from TokenPay, Verge and a bunch of other stuff. Some other themes, stuff like that. Maybe we’ll make the Larry and Joe show t-shirts, you can buy stuff like that. The goal is to have an actual functional business with the logistics and stuff to be able to execute and ship out worldwide and stuff like that. Collecting TokenPay and Verge and all that.

Larry: You’ve got all the right answers, Derek, I’m telling you. You’re on the ball with everything. Sometimes you’re going to actually say we’re not sure. No, you got the answer. You’re always saying good stuff buddy. I appreciate that.

Derek: You guys asked me in the previous show is there anything we can do or ask or not ask, I said, go for it ask me anything because I’m an open book. If there’s something that I don’t know the answer to, I’ll say, “Hey I’m sorry I really don’t know. That’s interesting. I’ll look into it.” But for me, we have so many plans and so many things for us, just bring it. [laughs]

Joe: Maybe in a couple months we could get you back on three months down the road and just do this again, see where we’re at, that would be great.

Derek: I’ll do my circuit.

Larry: Yes, cool because I’ll tell you we could talk to you now for another hour. I love talking, it’s great. I know you got family things to do and stuff though we appreciate you being here with us. Thank you so much.

Derek: Thanks a lot guys really appreciate it.

Joe: All right Derek, we’ll be in touch man. Thanks again.

Derek: No problem, thank you, bye, bye.

Larry: Have a good night.

Joe: All right. Derek Capo. Awesome guys, awesome stuff man.

Larry: Wow, he had all good answers guys. I’m telling you. We asked you guys about t-shirts to do something on that. He’s giving it to the bank and he’s got his things going on, just great stuff. Like I said it was really nice to talk to him, see the face behind the TokenPay and see what it’s really like and he’s the real thing. I tell you guys he’s the real thing.

Joe: Absolutely, and yes man my outlook on TokenPay right now is so different than it was an hour ago. I said this before, another young guy man doing his thing, and we’ll go more into this on Tuesday, but I think a lot of what’s built into him is the relationship that he had with his parents when he was younger and being in that environment. That really is why he is where he is today.

I truly believe that. You got a leader there, you got a leader that’s gung-ho about crypto and his coin. Me and Larry, I bought up a bunch of TPay a few days ago Larry just bought some today. We’re both in it, we see the value in it. I’m sure you guys do too man, debit cards and banks.

Larry: Yes after today’s talk, how can you not be interested in. Real quick I want to say all bull which is in our comments. He’s in the show right now red bull, a red bull. All Bull XVG, thank you so much. He’s the one that is donating two tickets to Amsterdam to the Meetup. Anybody who’s interested in that come back Tuesdays. Every Tuesday night we’re going to be giving away two tickets. If you happen to be lucky enough to want to go and get it. We have two tickets from All Bull XVG, appreciate it.

Joe: That meetup is on June 9th at [unintelligible 01:14:04] and Derek will be there as well as I’m sure a bunch of die hard TokenPay and Verge guys. Hey if you can make it to Amsterdam on June 9th and you want to get your shot at winning some tickets.

Larry: Tuesday night.

Joe: All Bull XVG every Tuesday we give shit away.

Larry: Yes we do.

Joe: We give shit away and we let you pick from a bunch of prizes that we have. That’s really it man. What a good show huh?

Larry: Yes. Thank you everybody, for being here. Guys I was watching the comments, Philosophy was in there saying a lot of good things, he is a funny dude, Wesley L. Hernandez, Wilson was here, [unintelligible 01:14:45] They’re all here, you guys are always here. We appreciate you being here. We really can’t say hello to you too much when we’re doing the interview but I definitely seen while you guys are in there. We appreciate you being here and as always keep coming back, come on Tuesday.

Also Tuesday Belinda Arauco sent us some things. I’m not going to say what it is but come back Tuesday we’ll show you what Belinda sent us. That was pretty awesome, we appreciate that. That’s a little surprise we got them in the mailbox today from Belinda.

Joe: Somebody just donated NOK20. I’m not sure what it is, but Noric Maries.

Larry: Noric Maries thank you so much for the 20.

Joe: For your donation. Thank you, man.

Larry: Appreciate it.

Joe: It’s nice interview guys keep it up. That’s awesome man, thank you so much. To everybody in the Verge community that’s going to eventually listen to this. Another thing guys, podcasts, all our interviews will be uploaded to iTunes as well as Google Play soon but they’re on iTunes now. If you want to catch any of our interviews from the past and then this interview in a couple days we’ll go up in a podcast format. If you want to listen and you can’t watch that’ll be an option for you guys.

Larry: Cool. Samuel asking about the debit card. He talked about that a little bit Joe.

Joe: Yes, we went into that.

Larry: He’s working on that now to try to get it going once with the bank. Really wasn’t too much to talk about but it’s definitely coming. 12 Cup Pizza what’s happening, MIKK, everybody man, again glad you were here, glad you watched us. It was an awesome interview. We really appreciate Derek.

Joe: We’ll be here Tuesday to recap it. We go over everything and we’ll give the prizes away so make sure you’re there and, yes guys we appreciate your support. Thank you so much.

Larry: Yes, we’re back.

Joe: We’re back yes, its been two weeks. I’ll tell you this. We both work full-time jobs. It doesn’t get boring or tiring but that little break it refreshes you, it really does.

Larry: I feel good.

Joe: It really does.

Larry: Last week said I look thinner. I don’t know I think I ate a lot on that freaking vacation, but if I look thinner that’s good though. Thank you, appreciate it.

Joe: It’s the black colored.

Larry: Yes, it was with the black. When is our next big interview, next Saturday?

Joe: Yes, okay. Next Saturday we have Point Gorilla coming on. We spoke to him about a week ago and he said he was still finalizing everything as far the G coin goes. I’m pretty sure if you signed up you will eventually get your G coin but he’ll be here next Saturday. The following Saturday we have our first female guest coming on the show. She’s got a very interesting story. I’ll just leave it at that.

Larry: Yes, that’s going to be an awesome interview.

Joe: Then the following weeks we have a couple of the coins that wanted to come on that seemed interesting to us. We get a lot of requests and we try to just bring what we believe in. We just don’t want to put anything out there and put any coin out there and just interview anybody. We want it to be interested in things that we believe in. We talk about Verge, we own it, we talk about TPay. We own it now, and guys I’m telling you mark my words from this day forward, TPay is going to be a $100 coin soon. Maybe it’s going to take a few months.

Larry: Even if it takes a few months, that’s awesome, don’t take a few years, a few months man, I can wait. I could wait. There is nothing wrong with that. It looks good. Again this is not financial advice. We don’t tell anybody what to do with their money. I just spend it right Joe. I could say talking to Derek again, his inspiration on his drive, it’s another [unintelligible 01:18:56]

It’s another Coin Gorilla, its another Mike [unintelligible 01:18:59] all these guys we talked to that we had on, Dan [unintelligible 01:19:03] You could just read it and see in their face how excited they are about their business and their coin and what they’re going to do about it. It’s nice to look at chart, it’s nice to look at this or that but you actually get to talk to the person behind the whole situation, it changes a lot of things because you could actually read what they are thinking, or where they’re going to go, they’re not full of crap. They’re really into it, they want you to work and it looks like it’s going to.

Joe: Absolutely, all right guys well on that note. I guess we’re out of here.

Larry: Great show.

Joe: We’ll see you guys Tuesday. Make sure you’re there and thanks again All Bull for the donation, we appreciate it.

Larry: Yes, again Tuesday be here, Nordic, All Bull appreciate it. All up mod, you did a great job today. Thank you so much for everything. We love you guys, we appreciate you and come back Tuesday. We’re going to be giving away tickets to the Amsterdam Meetup. We’re going to show you something that we got from Belinda Arauco, I hope I said your last name right Arauco, Orocco.

Joe: Maybe we’ll even scratch your ticket.

Larry: I bought a pack of couple tickets Down South man.

Joe: Yes, we might have to do that.

Larry: We might scratch your ticket.

Joe: Hit the lucky table.

Larry: Yes, we’ll hit the luck table, we’ll just scratch your ticket. All right, I almost forgot about that Joe, good.

Joe: And remember guys, if we win on this tickets we cut you guys in if it’s a big win.

Larry: That’s right, exactly.

Joe: Anyway, we’re out of here guys, we’ll see you Tuesday. Thank you Dereck Capoe.

Larry: Thank you so much.

Joe: Guys follow this man, he knows what he’s doing. Jump on board, TPay is the coin, and Qrtyptos, QRYPTOS exchange is where you can sign up and buy some right now while the price is low. Mark my words guys, TPay to the moon 2018, and I haven’t been wrong yet.

Larry: See you Tuesday guys. Thank you so much, love you, guys.

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